Many employees, managers, and even leaders are disconnected from who their customers are and how they live their lives. What if you infused a passion for the customer – and an understanding of the customer – into your business? A triple threat leader will ensure that customers are served with intelligent solutions that are designed for them, and that do right by the customer, the company, the employees, and society as a whole. In this episode we discuss customer centricity with Ken Rees, innovator, founder, and customer advocate about how he infuses customer centricity into the culture at his companies.
Many employees, managers, and even leaders are disconnected from who their customers are and how they live their lives. What if you infused a passion for the customer – and an understanding of the customer – into your business? A triple threat leader will ensure that customers are served with intelligent solutions that are designed for them, and that do right by the customer, the company, the employees, and society as a whole. In this episode we discuss customer centricity with Ken Rees, innovator, founder, and customer advocate about how he infuses customer centricity into the culture at his companies.
No matter what field you work in, you undoubtedly serve some type of customer. Many employees, managers and even leaders are disconnected from who their customers are and how they live their lives. What if you infused a passion for the customer and an understanding of the customer into your business? Can you think of a business or brand that has a culture that is passionate and empathetic about the customer that is innovative, and that is service oriented. A triple threat leader will ensure that customers are served with intelligent solutions that are designed for them. And they do right by the customer, the company, the employees, the shareholders, and society as a whole. Welcome to the leaders perspective podcast where we talk to Triple Threat leaders about the people products, trends and experiences that influence business. I'm now pleased to introduce your host, Jason Goldberg. Welcome back to the leaders perspective podcast where we engage with Triple Threat leaders to learn about their lives, careers and leadership philosophies and chat with our guests about a hot topic in society. As a reminder, a Triple Threat leader is one who embodies the very best of leadership and who has strong IQ EQ and DQ intelligence quotient, emotional quotient and the decency quotient. My guest today is a true innovator who is beyond passionate about the customers he serves. Ken Reese has founded and grown three financial technology companies, all serving millions of customers that he calls tight ropers. He is currently founder and CEO of covered a disruptive FinTech dedicated to providing affordable health care financing to people who struggle with less than prime credit scores. Prior to covered Ken was founder and CEO of elevate a leading online lender that he took public on the New York Stock Exchange. Additionally, he was the founder and CEO of cash works, a financial technology company acquired by GE. Earlier in his career, Ken ran CSE indexes, West Coast financial services consulting practice. Ken is a graduate of Reed College with a degree in mathematics. And he earned his MBA in finance and statistics from the University of Chicago. In 2012, Ken was selected by Ernst and Young as an entrepreneur of the year and was named a 2017 innovator to watch by bank innovation. He is also the author of teetering why so many live on a financial tightrope and what to do about it, and avid cyclist and eat a file Ken lives in San Francisco, California with his wife and dog. Welcome, Ken, to the leaders perspective. Thanks for joining us today.
Ken Rees:Thanks for having me. So, tell us about yourself. You know, where are you from? What are your hobbies? How do you how do you keep busy? Oh, well, I grew up splitting my time between Palo Alto and Minneapolis, met my wife in Minneapolis and eventually ended up being an entrepreneur focused on nonprime customers. That's been sort of my passion for the past, gosh, almost, almost 30 years now.
Jason Goldberg:And currently living in Dallas. Awesome. So let's talk about your journey. You know, you you started at least three companies that I know of.
Ken Rees:How did you how did you come to be an entrepreneur? I think you know, you're a consultant before your first before your first entrepreneurial venture. Yeah, I've always sort of viewed consulting as sort of postgraduate education, it was just a way to learn a little bit more get closer to senior management issues. Always wanted to start a business but but actually was consulting that kind of gave me the direction I wanted to hit. Really, it started with a project I had with a large bank, I was doing, you know, a study around kind of branch optimization. So how to make the branches more productive. But when I was in one of the branches, I kept hearing the staff complaining about the lobby trash, and I was so we talking about lobby trash? Well, it turns out, they're talking about people who are in their branch that weren't customers, but were in there to cash their their payroll checks. And, you know, I'd never heard of this before I first off, I had to sort of wrap my head around the idea that there are people that you know, actually they're making money on that the employees regularly referred to as lobby trash. But also just that, you know, the basic business opportunity seemed really unusual to me. I didn't understand it at the time and, and ultimately, it made me think more and more about the underserved consumers and financial services, how banking doesn't do a great job. with them. And then as I became an entrepreneur, I saw there was so much innovation happening in financial services of just kind of the early days of financial technology businesses. But none of that innovation was trickling down to the people I thought needed it most, you know, the people who have a lower credit score, lack of savings, more financial fragility, and that really kind of gotten me focused, started my first business, serving these check cashing customers then moved into the lending space and had been there ever since. That's awesome.
Jason Goldberg:So you call them tight robbers? You know, can you just help us define what what's the tight roper? And how do they get there?
Ken Rees:Yeah, yeah, I mean, we all hear about income inequality. But I don't think it's income inequality, as much as, as the you know, in equal levels of stability and financial stability, you know, you've got a percentage of the country that if they have an unexpected bill, or something comes up, it's no big deal. However, the people that I serve with the ad that I call type rovers, are living paycheck to paycheck, that's about half the US, now, they have very limited savings. And when something comes up, that may not seem like a big deal, you know, flat tire, even, it can sort of lead to a sort of snowballing effect with our financial lives, where bad things happen. And that's really why, you know, getting into the lending space serving this customer is so appealing, because even, you know, a few$100 can make a very, very big difference to get a tight Roper through a rough patch in their life and get them back
Jason Goldberg:on track. And they're not necessarily low income.
Ken Rees:That's yeah, that's correct. So it's one of the fascinating things, you know, certainly, depending on where you live, you know, live in San Francisco, you know, you can have a pretty high income and still be a tight, right.
Jason Goldberg:It's amazing. And, and I think what most people don't realize, and honestly, I didn't realize until until we work together years ago, that they're not, you know, it, you're you're filling a gap, right, we use the word underserved. And it's true, because the traditional financial services, larger financial institutions in the country are not serving this population. So if they need that few $100 loan or line of credit, or ability to pay a medical bill, they're not there to serve that customer for two reasons. One, they don't have the product to serve them. And two, they don't have the credit appetite.
Ken Rees:Right? What you know, I actually remember we, at my previous company, we set up a research and advocacy group called the Center for the new middle class to, you know, provide a lot of studies into their needs, and then really try to advocate for, for getting more services. And we oftentimes would go to conferences, and sometimes we would sponsor these, these working sessions where we bring type represent our customers, and have them talk to large audiences, typically of bankers. And I still remember one time when the one of the people, there's kind of a do gooder type, if you will, you know, ask the person on the stage and said, Well, if you you know, need a loan, why don't you just go to a credit union credit units are great, aren't they? And the guy you could tell it took him a few seconds to even process because he thought that was such a ludicrous question. They finally said, I don't go there because they won't give me a loan. And it sort of threw her back. She was like, Well, why wouldn't they give you a loan? Well, of course, because if you don't have pristine credit, you're not going to get a loan from a financial institution, you know, whether it's a big bank or credit union. So I think that is really the issue that, you know, we still have our major financial institutions in this country are focused on the old America, you know, all of America defined as stable incomes and savings, and they haven't really course corrected to the New America, which is much more fast paced, where there's much more income and stability and savings, even if you have it can erode really quickly. And of course, that's even more so today, with rising inflation, gas prices are sure things like we're back to a period where people can very quickly get underwater.
Jason Goldberg:And you know, you mentioned income instability. There's also also unpredictability with a lot of gig economy workers working multiple jobs. And so their their income is fluctuating, it's coming in at different times of the month at at different amounts, so they can't rely upon that steady, stable paycheck that Americans what's happening.
Ken Rees:Right? Well, and then of course, what's sort of interesting is, you know, income becomes more in stable, but actually expenses have become more and more stable. Because you know, subscriptions, right, for sure. What have you, absolutely, you're locked in for X dollars a month, no matter what's happening with your income, and, you know, cell phones and things like that. So it is it is tough oftentimes to match up inflows and outflows. And I think that's why having a healthy, you know, lending products that serve everything from the most pristine credit levels to the lowest credit levels is so important for a, you know, to keep our society as stable as humanly possible.
Jason Goldberg:So let's talk about covered your most recent adventure. It is offering credit solutions to less than Prime customers in the healthcare space. How's it different from other, you know, BNPL, or credit card providers?
Ken Rees:Yeah, well, when I was looking into starting a business, you know, new business 2019 years, there was a lot of focus on Buy now pay later, companies affirm and others, but I saw them doing sort of the same thing that happens everywhere in financial services, it was everybody was chasing down the same customer at the top of the credit spectrum. And it was leading to, obviously, frustration from the customers, but also frustration for the merchants, you know, they want to get everybody who wants to buy their products, or use their services, access to financing, yet the approval rates were, you know, 40 45%. So I figured there's got to be an opportunity to take what I think I know pretty well, which is how to serve the underserved consumers in this country, and take that into the Buy Now pay later space. And in particular, we focused on health care, you know, part of it, you know, in a way was, you know, a mission based aspect, what better thing to be able to help Americans get the health care they need. And, and what's so fascinating about this business is, you know, we kind of actually make everybody happy, you know, the doctors are happy because they, they're able to serve more patients. The customers, patients, obviously are happy, but actually the prime lenders that the people that are currently in those doctor's offices are happy too, because the doctor stopped beating up on them about not approving more, you know, when we get integrated into the waterfall, a doctor's office can approve 90% of the patients that come in the door, prime lender may only approve 40 45%, we approve 85% of their declines out on off, you've got a solution for just about everybody that needs credit.
Jason Goldberg:So what's the issue with health care providers? And the fact that people need to have you know, where's the gap here, right? So somebody needs health care. There's, there's clearly a gap because in our current system, they either have a copay or coinsurance or they might be under uninsured. And they're left with a bill. Right. And we I think we've all had, you know, shocking bills from, you know, either ers or I needed a CAT scan or a dental procedure. What creates the need for your product?
Ken Rees:Well, you know, and actually be clear that the segments that we're serving are primarily elective that's so his hearing aids. dental work. clear aligners is big business. Yes. Cosmetic LASIK, all of those sorts of Okay. And, and, you know, this is where it's, you don't really have all that sort of crazy, traditional health care thing where you walk in the door, you've got no idea how much it's gonna cost until you finally get the bill. Right. That's a whole different issue. And I'm not sure I'm, in fact, I'm certain I'm not smart enough to figure that. But what I'm really dealing with is, you know, somebody who, who actually, you know, is on Zoom calls all the day sees you know, their teeth are really a problem wants to get them straightened, but it's going to cost $1,500 or$2,000. You know, we can Find a way to help that that patient, even if they have a 500 credit score, the dental work they want to need at a fixed payment amount that's affordable for them.
Jason Goldberg:So let's pivot I want to, you know, the obviously, the topic I wanted to chat with you about is customer centricity. And, you know, in my career I've worked for, you know, when I count up the companies that I've worked with, and for their, for that, I'd say we're incredibly passionate about their customers or clients, and in each one in different ways. You know, your, your former company, where we work together, it was, it was different, it hit different, in my mind, it was completely embedded within the culture. And from everything that I understood, you started that from day one, and employees, when they were hired into the company, were really embedded into this, you know, from orientation, till, you know, till the very last day, they were embedded in this culture of understanding who the customer is, how they live, what challenges do they face? How do they earn money? What worries them? How did you go about creating that?
Ken Rees:You know, first off, I'm really glad that that came through that that way to us, nothing can be more rewarding to a CEO, then to see the cultural attributes you try to create, actually make it through to 10 employees. But, you know, for, for me, a lot of it was, you know, as a company grew, when you, when you start our company, you know, everybody's essentially, you come in one big room, right? Even with Zoom calls, and everybody can pay attention to everything, you know, I hear the customer complaints, I hear that the technology team battling over the latest specifications, it's really easy to get what's going on. But as you grow, it becomes harder and harder. So that became a big focus of me, is, you know, how do you stay connected to that customer that's having a problem with making a payment or is frustrated about, you know, some aspect of the product. So, you know, we started in touch sessions, so every employee had to spend time, you know, in the call center, listening to calls and listening to the customers also gave everybody a real sensitivity for the kinds of issues that our customer service reps had to deal with. And then also, we spent a lot of time on, you know, little things that night, I, as you recall, the I did something I called cookies with Ken, you know, we bring in people from all levels of the company, and we'd sort of just talk, you know, every couple of weeks, you know, it'd be maybe a dozen 15 people, and we just, you know, listen to people talk about their frustrations, what they thought the company could do better, we talk about how our products could be better, I think, you know, you sort of get that together, you know, keep people connected with customers, keep people connected, cross functionally and cross hierarchy with everybody, you got a chance to evolve, you got a chance to innovate and, and, you know, ultimately, I think he got a chance to build an interesting company. And
Jason Goldberg:I think, I agree with all of that. I think one of the key differentiators, though, I've worked with companies, and when they say they want to innovate, they're going off and creating something either that doesn't exist, or they're enhancing a product or a service, perhaps to improve profitability. But as you lead, you did it from the lens of with the overarching theme of how do we make the lives of these tightrope errs better. So,
Ken Rees:I think you've maybe given me a little bit too much credit, because I had my more than my fair share of innovation disasters. I mean, we launched one product that we were so excited about, because it was essentially kind of a supposed to be a viral payment instrument, that product and I'm walking into the details of it. But you know, we've done all this customer research and talk to people, they're like, We want this this is gonna be so great. And so we were kind of high fiving ourselves in the early research was so great. We built the product, we launched it, absolute dud and went nowhere. And so, you know, you just can't always, always tell but, you know, I think, you know, I'm gonna give you a lot of credit here.
Jason Goldberg:You still have it. That's great,
Ken Rees:Jason Goldberg innovation right here than you did at my previous company. It's a credit card focused on the needs of, you know, sort of non Prime customers. And what I like about what you did is you This is different, you know, it could have been very, you know, generic card, it could have been, you know, a lot of people do almost certain demeaning things where you put like dollar bills all over it, because you think, well, if it's a non Prime customer, they want to see dollar bills or, or gold glitter or something like this. And, you know, you probably can't tell from the camera, but you know, it's an orange card, it's, it's a vertical card, as opposed to personal cards, it's got this little yellow band around it, it's distinctive, and it shows a lot of respect for our customers, and treats them as you know, adults as as deserving of innovation and, you know, products that are tuned to their needs. And I think that's really what I liked about the way that you built this is you didn't cut any corners, you didn't just say, Oh, well, a nonprime customer, they'll take any car, they can get, you know, you really thought about every aspect of how to tune that experience from the card itself to the interactions in the call center, to the way that it was marketed to be distinctive and not end up just like everybody else. Yeah,
Jason Goldberg:we are certainly we certainly had our share speed bumps, for sure, along the way. But I think we we constantly looked to listen to the customer. And I think probably the perfect example with that product was how, you know, in the, in the very beginning, we we obviously needed an annual fee on the product to make it to make it profitable. And in the very beginning, our loss rates were higher than we would have liked. And we drill down and figured out that it was because of the annual fee and, and these customers were unable to pay the annual fee and their first payment in one sum. So went to the drawing board and said, you know, what can we do to maintain, you know, positivity for the company profitability for the company, but also something that is better for the customer and different from the market. And that's where we went out, we were actually the very first credit card in the country to charge a monthly fee, which the customer absolutely loved. And could could, you know, that was great for a tight rope or who who has this income, you know, they have the tighter income, or I should say tighter, you know, flexible spending. And so this allowed them to, to cover that that need on a monthly basis. So yeah, that was definitely, you know, part of that that culture of customer centric innovation is what what drove what drove that?
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Ken Rees:Yeah, no, I, you know, and I was not allowed to use the card as as the CEO, but I still keep it with me, because I really do think this is sort of what I like about innovating to this customer base by, you know, kind of tearing up the old rule set and, you know, in our space, you know, a lot of the rules on how do you serve the underbanked, or the lower income, you know, it's or lower credit scores, it's typically about how aggressively can you collect? You know, you know, even, you know, a lot of you sue people, because they're not, they're not paying off or you, you, you know, take their car back or what have you. And, and I think that isn't the answer. I think people will try to pay you if they can, you still have to charge enough that you can make make money, but instead of trying to, you know, make money by punitive methods, you know, make money with transparency and respect and providing a product that's distinctive and useful. Definitely.
Jason Goldberg:So how have you brought the same passionate to covered?
Ken Rees:Well, I think a lot of it is the same, you know, when and actually there's a tremendous number of advantages to our business over traditional lending businesses because we don't really have fraud. I mean, that's sort of an amazing thing. You know, customers aren't going to defraud us to straighten their teeth, you know, it's we know they are who they say they are, we take it down payment, so we get some sense of affordability. Our downpayment is typically, you know, two monthly payments, so that gives us a sense, okay, well, they have enough savings to get started. We get a valid payment instrument and about 93 4% setup with auto pay off with that done If the typically a Bank Debit card, and also the the merchants or the or the doctors, you know, want to serve the underserved as well. So they actually accept a discount. So if it's $1,000 procedure, we pay them less than$1,000 to make that loan, so, so the economics are really interesting, we don't have customer acquisition costs, we we do have higher losses, because we're serving a less credit worthy customer, but we don't have fraud losses. And because there's a discount on the procedure, you know, we can charge, you know, typically credit card rates to a customer, that is not credit card worthy from from a credit score. What's on my mind, because the economics,
Jason Goldberg:but that's their expectation and their desire, right there, they're willing to do it, they have a need for it. And, and it's serving that need.
Ken Rees:Yeah, and right, and it isn't like, we're just, you know, sort of pushing money into the bank, we're helping them get a medical procedure that they need. So that also, you know, sets up a relationship between them and us, it's different from just a lender relationship, they equate us with the health care treatments that they needed. What would be
Jason Goldberg:your advice for other leaders? in improving their company's focus and understanding of a customer?
Ken Rees:Well, you know, I, I think every See, I think, senior leaders all get, right. I mean, you can't run a business and be divorced from your customer. You know, I think a lot of ways the question is, how do you build it throughout the business? Because it is so easy for people who are in a, you know, functional job, maybe to lose that connection? Well, I'm just a coder. You know, or, or I'm in accounting? You know, why should I understand about the customer. So I, that's why I thought this, in touch sessions of having everybody have some sort of a connection is important. And I think most companies, there's a way to get people out of their job, and give them some access to customer that could be, you know, whether it's as we did listening to calls, or Skype visits, and, and I think every time that I've always done that, you know, people have called me up afterwards and said, Oh, I'm really glad we did. I didn't think this would be useful. But now I get it, but I really have a better sense of why I'm here at work. And I think, you know, we all are dealing with this situation of, you know, what are we? It's not conscious uncoupling. What's the trigger? For quitting on the job?
Jason Goldberg:Oh, unconscious. Unconscious quitting is? No, no, no, no, no. It's conscious quitting. It's conscious quitting, isn't it? There? Yeah. Right. Right. No, quiet, quiet, quitting, quiet, quiet. And that was.
Ken Rees:So I mean, you know, so many people are losing their connection with their job, you know, we're on Zoom calls, we're not seeing each other, we're not connecting directly, those obvious ways that force you to stay engaged, aren't there anymore. So it is harder to keep people engaged and keep people passionate and keep people connected. And I think this is all part of it. You know, my, my, my wife has been, you know, on our vacation over Labor Day, it was her birthday. And, and as usual, I was spending all my time on Zoom calls. So she spent a lot of time listening in and she says, Oh, I can quite get what you do. Now I get it, your whole job seems to be about getting people to be excited about what they're doing, and sort of do the best they can. And I was like, Yeah, that's a pretty good way to put it. And now more so than ever. So I think, you know, it's easy for leaders to think about kind of the economics and, you know, raising money and all this stuff, but but you still have to keep that, you know, how do you how do you get people connected to the customer and feeling passionate and wanting to step up to make a difference in the lives of
Jason Goldberg:people. It's not always easy to understand the customer I call it the the ivory tower syndrome, right? Where, you know, we we sit in a nice office, and we don't necessarily live the life that our customer lives, right. We don't face the same challenges. And so on a previous episode, I spoke about the opportunity, where we went out. And actually it was a just like a non prime scavenger hunt, where we had to, you know, we had to go into a, you know, a title lending store, go get a loan from a traditional bank, we had to go to a pawn shop, all things that non prime consumers might might be doing. And, and for me, that was one of the biggest eye openers. And that's what drives, I think, really the in touch sessions 100%, like hearing your customers, hearing the tone, their concerns, and hearing how they interact, and how they make decisions, but, but absolutely going out and doing some of the activities that they're trying to do in your own space, is something that I recommend highly, because it will open your eyes.
Ken Rees:A lot of ways, that's why I, you know, I wrote my book here, you know, was because, you know, innovators, you know, for better or worse, we're pretty privileged group, you know, and there's not a whole lot of us that, you know, have lived paycheck to paycheck and really get it and, and I think that's why I tried to write this to say, let's get the stories out there, let's people, let's, let's have have more understanding about the pain that our customers face, whether it's early in life, as they're, you know, going into college, or the kind of midlife challenges with kids, or they, you know, going into retirement challenges, because that's one thing innovators do really, really well, they understand pain, they can come up with solution to that pain, but the pain that you saw, when you tried to go to get a Title Loan, or get a check cashed. Most people, you know, in business don't get that they don't understand that a large percentage of this country deals with that every day. And once you can circulate, and surface those, those pain points, you know, innovators are really good at getting a Ha, I've got a salute, right, and we'll go in there and they, you know, ultimately, hopefully make a lot of money. So that's sort of what I was trying to deal with, let's let's almost have a source book for, you know, here's the 20 pain points that are really impacting this customer base, somebody's going to figure out how to go after at least.
Jason Goldberg:So in your businesses, because you've worked in, in lending and financial technology, there are obviously regulatory and political pressures that come from the outside. And and, you know, I found undoubtedly, you know, it's similar to this White Tower syndrome, you often have people who look at banks, fintechs, lending companies of all types. And they don't fully understand the products and the customers, and so they try to regulate something that they don't understand. And that creates significant pressure issues for companies that that you found. So how do you think about that? How do you? How do you deal with that, and, and innovates through a highly regulated environment?
Ken Rees:Yeah, that's definitely the challenge, you know, and just gets a lot of ways worse and worse each year, as far as, you know, political gridlock and sort of, you know, that the parties moving further and further apart from each other, you know, makes it hard to have those conversations with with regulators around, what's this customer facing? And how do we come up with products that, you know, are maybe not perfect, but make a positive difference? And, you know, we all know the expression, right, you know, perfect is the enemy of good. I mean, that's definitely the case in politics, where somebody may want to make a sort of a political point about high interest products. And what does that do? It just leads to no credit being available at all my, my favorite story was, there was a big ag actually the Ag of West Virginia. We were talking to one time, and this was somebody who made his entire career on shutting down, you know, higher interest products. And we sit through it, and we get it that you're not a fan of high interest products. But what do you expect people to do? If they their car breaks down, and they need access to credit if it's not available? And I said, Well, West Virginia, we have something we call the boot, but he didn't really have an accent. But you know, he's talking about the boot and we're like, What are you talking about? He says, Well, you know, the boot you they stand on a street corner, and with a boot and people put money in the boot. So that was his answer was panhandle. And we're like, Well, you know, I think you know, we may not like hierarchies products, but you've got to admit hierarchies products is a better solution than ham for sure. But, you know, that wasn't the way he thought so, but you know, at the end of the day, you have to engage you have to tell your story may not, you know, get a win. You know, I still remember a board member, you know, brought me in to meet with Elizabeth Warren one time and you know, I'm pretty sure I didn't change Elizabeth Warren's mind on the you know, financial issues facing nonprime Americans, but you got to do it, you got to be out there. And, you know, there is a temptation to just keep your head down. But I think you have to be willing to advocate strongly for your products that you know, even in situations where you may not win anybody, and advocate
Jason Goldberg:for the customer, because oftentimes they don't understand the customer. So at the end of every session of all the episodes, I like to ask a question about, you know, who are who are one to two leaders, who you've learned, learn from along the way, who have influenced you, either in a good or bad way? And, you know, what did they teach you?
Ken Rees:Well, you know, I mentioned my my visit to ELIZABETH WARREN Well, that was due to a really incredible mentor, Bob Johnson, Bob Johnson founded BT billionaire. But what he always taught me is, you know, not to, to accept limits, and to get yourself out there. So he was one who said, you know, what, your, you need to tell the story of this customer base, and I'm going to take you in to see Elizabeth Warren. And I was like, What's crazy, but but he did, and, you know, he's, he's very well connected. And DC, partly because he knows so important, you know, you know, he doesn't think about what one does is, as an executive, it's just about kind of making money, but it is making a societal impact and being connected it you know, with the, you know, with the sort of VCs as well as with, with, with DC, as well. So he's great. And then I think another person, another Johnson, Blake Johnson, he founded a company called bite was actually our first customer at cover. This guy is the savviest entrepreneur I've ever come across, he started number of businesses, and he thinks about it, like a process. He's the most process or most people and I, and this way, you start a business, and you sort of react to what happens. And hopefully, if you're, you're good and lucky, you end up in a place that kind of works. In fact, we started this business, just the week before the pandemic hit. I mean, literally, it was horrible. And so we did a fair amount, of course, corrections, but this guy thinks it all the way through. And from day one, he's thinking about what it's going to take to build a company that you can sell. And I like I said, I've never seen a guy that's this specific and orderly about starting a business, growing a business, not getting distracted by the temptations of having people throw money at you. And that's been something that has happened to so many great businesses, they get sort of sucked up in all of the, you know, we need to have a really huge team. So let's really hire a lot of people, because that's important. And, you know, let's have really fancy office space. And, you know, let's not worry about profitability, let's just grow a big business, right? And then all of a sudden, that blows up. And he very disciplined, you know, with all of his businesses, and I really tried to take that into cover, to not get ahead of myself, and be very, very disciplined in how to grow the business. So those are the two people that I think about quite a bit.
Jason Goldberg:That's great advice. Appreciate it. Well, Ken, thank you so much for joining us today. I think we learned a lot about customer centricity. We certainly learned a lot about about tight ropers and all that you've done in your career to support half of the American population. So thanks again. No, thank you, Jason.
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